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Legio Antianorum Delenda Est!
mood: 
Vindictivus
VindictivusOn talk: sailor moon, the masses are pissy cause Ian is relatively right about his ideas (ie Dies Gaudii), but being right isn't always "right".
I can see their point, re punnyness, but I still think Ian is plenty correct logically. Anime != logic, often.
Well, it is interesting to see those people resorting to an idiosyncratic or eccentric use of language to make such an objection. I mean, if I am right, I am right. If I am wrong, I am not right. There is no need for this "right" nonsense. It seems as if those people have trouble attacking my real arguments, so they invent another system of "right" so that they can create the illusion that they have a legitimate case against me. But, really, I think it is more important to keep in mind that not only do we need to consider what is right, we also have to consider what is expedient (i.e. what is practical or appropriate to a purpose).
Other people need to know that there is a debate going on behind the scenes which is affecting the neutrality of the page in question, and several times people are commenting negatively on my personal character, which could be affecting their judgment.
This gives me just another reason to avoid posting at Wikipedia from now on. I truly do not wish to deal with the Anti-Ian Brigade directly, but I simply cannot let this nonsense pass. And I dislike Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It reminds me too much of this comic:
As for punnyness, literal meanings need to be differentiated from the non-literal meanings.
Anyway, Catlord said that those people "need to relax and smell the eekiness, anyways"! I agree completely! (Perhaps they would like a nice yuri manga starring Fanny Hensel and Marie Antoinette.)
Oh, I have an idea! Since I love Latin (and Graeco-Latin words) so much, I could give them a scientific name! How about...
Antianus vulgaris?
Hm, Antianus could also mean "follower of Antie": Anti-, base of Antia, a Latinization of Antie, and the suffix -anus. But I would rather use Philiani to refer to the ones who are on my side. One member of the Philiani is a Philianus, but a female member is a Philiana. And Philianae refers to more than one Philiana.
Okay Philiani! Please show me your support! Legio Antianorum Delenda Est... the Anti-Ian Brigade Must Be Stopped!
By the way, I have set the "Screen Comments" option to "By non-friends" for obvious reasons.
I've actually posted some articles in Wikipedia about certain characters in the anime series Yoroiden-Samurai Troopers and I've never read the forums that people may or may not be posted. I wonder if I should see them? Or even if I want to? Considering that anybody can post onto Wikipedia, I guess I should be more careful. Anyways, I support you!
I'm against those bad mean Anti-Ian people!
Just tell who's tires I gotta go flatten!
And I'll get out the toilet paper and soap and we'll have ourselves some REAL fun. ::nod nod::
(And I'll swipe your way cool Icon and start spreading it in alllll those familiar places.... Heh.)
Wait, we need a latin word for "playa hata" or just "hater".
*stamps Philiani on head* I'm wif you all the way. When can I start setting things on fire?
"Hater" in Latin is osor (male)/ostrix (female), and "playa hata" is lusorosor/lusorostrix.
(Anonymous)
StarSenshi
First of all, in the case of "Serenity" vs "Selenity", there is no known absolute truth. One would have to ask Naoko Takeuchi herself how she intended "Sereniti" to be spelled in romaji. Anything else is but a hypothesis, and thus can be challenged. Of course, I'm not telling you anything new; you wrote the same thing in your article. (Though on the contents page, you actually write that "[...] 'Serenity' is the spelling that was intended." Leaning out of the window quite far, aren't you? ;-))
Anyway, that CureWhite person's challenge on the wikitalk page is pretty poor as she(?) disregards this very fact, boldly stating instead that "'Selenity' is what Naoko-hime intended". She cites Alex Glover to support her claim, who indeed uses "Selenity" in his manga translation, but that shouldn't mean too much really - Glover also uses "Tuxedo La Smoking Bamba", which looks like random weirdness to me. It seems CureWhite has promoted questionable or outright wrong terms and spellings on WP before. I wouldn't worry too much about her.
I can think of much better ways to challenge your arguments (though I agree with most, if not all, of your conclusions). For one, you judge transliterations based upon whether they are actual English words, and criticize "idiosyncratic or eccentric use of language". However, Sailor Moon is a work of fiction, not a scientific paper. Idiosyncratic and eccentric use of language ("poetic freedom") are not so uncommon in this field of literature. There is no doubt that, as an English word, "Serenity" is more correct than "Selenity", but we can't presume Naoko wanted to use a correct English word in the first place. The principle of parsimony does not necessarily lead to the right explanation, especially in such cases. Also, you apply artificial restrictions when you argue that "Selenity" cannot be a pun. While it might not satisfy a strict definition of 'pun', it certainly is a play on words. Puns are but a special case of wordplays, thus saying that "Selenity" must be wrong because it's not a valid pun is unsound argumentation.
(I'm not trying to promote the spelling "Selenity", I don't even use it myself. I am just arguing that there is no certain way to prove it wrong - except for Naoko, of course.)
As for those bashing you, it probably can be helped. Once you raise your voice in a controversy, you'll be the target of those who disagree with you. There are just too many people around who'll resort to bashing rather than cleanly laid-out counterarguments. It's a lot easier, after all. Perhaps some also dislike your style of discussing, but I can't judge that.
Some final words on Wikipedia: "Neutral point of view" means that articles should not reflect their author's opinion, but give a comprehensive, impartial overview. This includes, of course, shedding light on all sides of a controversy. It does not mean all those sides should be presented as equal in value if they are not. For example, the WP article on Young Earth creationism accurately conveys the fact that it is but a religious belief and has been thoroughly refuted by science, while being perfectly NPOV. For WP, this policy is a necessity to prevent it from being turned into a propaganda platform, particularly in the case of philosophical issues where there is no ultimate truth (e.g. software patents). I am an active Wikipedian myself and firmly believe NPOV is absolutely essential for the quality of our articles.
Phew! This has turned out quite long, but I think it deserved writing.
Kind regards,
StarSenshi
Re: StarSenshi
That is just as well. If one is interested in claims of absolute truth, he or she should stick with mathematics and religion.
Certainly, all of those ideas can and should be challenged, but as you probably know, not all hypotheses are created equal.
Not really. What I wrote there is an inference based on information that is known.
We would call that an appeal to authority.
Absolutely.
Well, think of the context. I am not claiming that any idiosyncratic or eccentric use of language doesn't work. But if others are trying to find a case against me, and if they need to resort to idiosyncratic or eccentric use of language, then we have a problem.
Then we go with what is otherwise known. It is an argument from ignorance to use the facts we do not know (Ms. Takeuchi intentionally spending the time to coin the nonce word "Selenity") to invalidate the facts that we do know ("Serenity" is an existing word that fits the katakana-character combination, has a semantic and historical significance that can be verified, and is relevant to the story). As for what is meant by "what is known," that does not necessarily refer to statements from Ms. Takeuchi.
The principle of parsimony (which is abused too much) takes into consideration what is actually known, and it favors the idea with the fewest leaps in logic, the fewest terms. Sure, it is not always right, mainly because new knowledge is always coming in, but if you claim that it is not right, and yet you cannot show what that otherwise right explanation is, then you are appealing to hypothetical facts we do not know.
If a better idea -- one that is thought to be the right explanation -- comes my way, that would be great! That would make me very happy! But I am not going to assume beforehand that there is some other right explanation if nobody can show it.
Re: StarSenshi
I am not exactly sure where and when I said that "Selenity" cannot be a pun, but then again, it is been quite a long time since I last read and edited that part of my site. If that is actually what is written, then it needs to be changed (like many other things on my site).
It looks like the ideas, or hypotheses, can be falsified.
My biggest problem with the policy is not really relevant to specifically the world of Sailor Moon. What I have in mind are especially scientific subjects. Sometimes there are two legitimate arguments to be made, but sometimes there just aren't. And I am not fond of the "reach a consensus or don't present the facts" kind of mentality.
Re: StarSenshi
Well, yes, she is not using English, she has used nonce words in the past (Tellu, Meteria, Guccicci, and some others), and idiosyncratic and eccentric uses of language ("poetic freedom") are indeed not so uncommon in this field of literature. And why should we assume that a well-established word with a real significance and a real spelling should be more favorable than a nonce word? Those are the obvious and gravest objections that can be urged against most, if not all, of my conclusions.
I think that I can respond to those objections by point out how words appear in Ms. Takeuchi's work. Although she did use nonce words (such as the few that I mentioned above), she had a greater propensity for using real words (and although the grammar was not always right, that does not refute the existence the actual real words). After looking at various areas (such as the act titles) of both versions of the manga (old and new), I noticed that when a non-Japanese (English, French, Latinized Greek, et cetera) word written in Roman letters appears, it is more likely than not to be spelled normally (the words that have unusual spellings are either misspellings like Sailor Mers or other Takeuchian names like Sailormoon and Sailormars). Even the old and new titles of the manga contain real words: Pretty, Soldier, and Guardian. Moreover, the name of the man who is the lover of our Princess セレニティ is rendered as Endymion, not as some nonce spelling like Ehndimione or whatever. (By now, my position on whether セレニティ is supposed to be a pun is this: it is a pun that only works in Japanese such that it can refer directly to the existing word Serenity and yet exhibit the same セレ found in セレーネ. Selenity becomes unnecessary.) But if Ms. Takeuchi consistently used nonce words throughout the manga in such a way that they were more often seen than real words, then I would be more willing to use the nonce words to follow such a Takeuchian tendency.
So, since Ms. Takeuchi tended to use correct words in her work, I think that is a justification for postulating the idea that, in other situations, Ms. Takeuchi would have been more likely to use correct words. If I had to wager on either a real word and a nonce word in a specific situation, and various clues tell us that the real word is relevant, I would wager on the real word. Now that you know that, you can probably tell why I favor, for instance, Nehellenia instead of the nonce word Nephelenia.